nwg

Moopere, please see this test replay :

http://rapidshare.com/files/145501178/R ... T.rpy.html

Myself and Dougie are VERY eager to know the reason for this.....we start off with even numbers and the kills are pretty even for quite some time with neither side gaining much advantage - which surprised us both as the Dutch seem to be far better shooters in our games......BUT then, watch what happens after a while, the Dutch start to gain steadly and after a while they have 25% more men left, and then it gets worse and worse (as you would expect) untill in the end the Dutch have about 100% more men left when the Spanish break.

I don't know what is happening here as it starts out with no advanatge at all, but the Dustch gain and gain.

Any answers to this odd situation ?.

Please note : It is NOT the Dutch getting a good early start and so having more men to shoot with - they have about the same numbers after about 10 rounds of shooting, but then they start to draw futher and further ahead !.

No wonder the Spanish can not win a fire fight !.

How many of these tests did you do? Are they all consistent and giving results as above?




With even stats random variation in the game will give one side or the other a slight advantage at some point...a lucky volley or some other semi random event. After the balance is tipped its extremely likely that the numerically stronger side will win unless a very significant random event happens (like a really unlucky volley)




A couple of possibilities come to mind.

- Its the result of a random event as mentioned above. Everything was more or less even (as you would expect) until something happened. The check against this is the repeatability. If you can repeat this test any number of times with the same result and same characteristics to the result then its not likely to be this. Note that I'd want to see at least 10-15 tests to be sure unless it was -very- evident early on.

- Something else is changing in the units at the 10th volley or thereabouts....like fatigue. Its possible that the internal-to-game and largely invisible ramifications of even a little fatigue are quite severe. Did this phenomenon happen at or around the point at which the troops changed from "fresh" to "warmed up" or "tired"?




Yes sure, once the balance is tipped you're stuffed. If you started the fire fight with lower stats then doubly so.




10 volleys is a long firefight in my mind. Active units will certainly fire more then 10 shots in the game, but to stand and deliver (or take) 10 volleys is always going to be bad news for unit with the weaker stats.

Other things can often come into play as well. For instance, Russian Musketeers have a primary firing stat of 14 as with Spanish Line, but the Russians additionally suffer from using inaccurate_bullet as their type of fire. However, the Russians benefit from Disciplined morale, which overall means that yes, they will lose almost any firefight when you measure the casualties but they tend to hang around and not rout until the casualties are very high indeed.

In conclusion then, you would have to do a -lot- of scenario testing to try and reverse engineer what is really going on here engine wise and I'm not sure what the benefit would be ultimately. The difference between most factions line and the best line (British or Ports) is only a few points, 14 versus 17. Its not the most important statistic in my view though, accurate bullet (predominantly British), bullet (mostly everyone) and inaccurate_bullet (Russian, Ottoman and all militia) have a far far greater effect.

One way or another, with even odds in other respects, you would expect the Spanish to lose a firefight against the Dutch even if the -only- difference was 1 point of Primary fire statistic. This statistic -must- mean something, it has value (in florins) and we'd all be mighty surprised if the Spanish were able to win given lesser stats (again, all other things being even).

This is an interesting case because the only difference between the units being tested is that one point of primary fire stat. Often there are other stats differences which tend to make comparison difficult or that even mask the real results of such subtle difference.

If we've done > 10 tests on level ground with fresh troops and no significant variation in animation speed to fire and are convinced this phenomenon is real then the question boils down to: What do we think a 1 point fire factor advantage is worth in florins? Bear in mind that given a minimum resolution of 25 florins (as now) you can't say for sure that its currently costing 25f, it -might- be, but it could be less (rounded up) or more (rounded down) and to change the perceived value of this factor from say around 25f to 50f will have a knock on effect for all other factions troops in the game...British line for instance will become remarkably expensive (probably > 600f). However, I am not against re-weighting this stat if its felt necessary. The morale stat got re-weighted in the transition to CB v3.0 mainly because the difference between elite troops and line troops was not much and morale is known to be probably the main factor in the entire game.

Best regards, M.

Did you watch the replay ?......I'd say something very stange is at work here.....I would expect repeated tests to give the same result, as It's been seen in all our wiki battles, and we have had a lot.

I'm at work at the moment but will have a look when I get home this evening.

Regards, M.

Hmmm overall very complicated stuff, its clearly not a simple this faction has firing stat of 15 and this one 14, plenty more to be taken into consideration, for one we had to march our units to contact and we did not check them for condition before the firefight started, were they fresh tired etc etc. and we only tested one 1v1 and one 2v2.
Am i correct in thinking that the dutch and Spanish line are identical in all except this firing stat ??
Having said all that i have like Gun seen more than enough in our wiki games to believe that this is a big advantage to the dutch.
Looking forward to hearing more from you M, on this.

I checked this. In all cases the Dutch were 'warmed up' at the start whereas the Spanish were "Fresh" - this is a definite disadvantage for the Dutch and did stick in my mind although I didn't comment on this over at the other thread. I did some number crunching because of this fact. If the Dutch were fresh the difference in ability would have been slightly more obvious.




Its a problem to have a small sample set when the random factor is large. However, watching each volley and its effect, which is what I was doing, showed that the Dutch held an advantage even given that they started tired. However, Gunners perception of this is different to my own, I viewed the advantage as very slight indeed, coloured no doubt by me becoming used to having my Ruskies fall in droves before everyones line volleys.




I believe this to be the case. I was on the watch out for any possibility of animation speed differences, but although the reload speed of both were very slightly different I'm sure this was due to different fatigue levels.




Have a look at the other thread on this. I always put up a strenuous rebuttal to test the argument being made, but, at the same time, I accept the empircal evidence provided by both of you. I have been watching all your campaign replays after all.

Best regards,
Moopere

I'm sure the little test confirmed what happened in the wiki battles, the Spainish seemed ok in the fire fights for a while, I was happy that they were doing ok, but as time went by they "seemed" to do worse and worse, which is what happened in the test.....they were fine for a while, but were ALWAYS first to break.

I had expected that the first volley or two would see the Dutch kill more men than the Spanish and then of course there is no recovery from that position - which is quite as it should be.

You start with 243 each.....when it gets to 230 v 220 then the 220 is going to get worn away slowly.....when it's 185 v 145 you know you are in serious trouble....BUT this appears not to happen.....rather it starts of very even in numbers killed (good for Spain) but then the stat advantage kicks in later and is very much in the Dutch favour - perhaps as it should be......the only problem with all this is the "small" difference of 25 florins. Other than that, all is as it should be in the end, just the way it happens is UNexpected !.

This is a reason that sometimes it can be best to kill a few men with artillery fire from a lot of different units, so when a full strength unit meets a weakened one, you get 243 v 220 and the stronger one SHOULD then win the fire fight - all things being equal.

Who would have thought a single point difference in the shooting stat could generate so much discussion ?.

When I read all than as if I was not a CB player let me think : "CB is not yet mature".

How a bad advertising!

Had that test been did with napoleonic already? If not, please, do it right now and comment! Else it is not amazing so few are wishing to join us.

Best regards,
gp.

This game has been around for two years now and we all keep finding new stuff to chat about....so much changes as people try out new things......I don't think anyone really thought that this SMALL stat difference was "a big deal" and maybe it's not.

As M has said, a lot of this is down to player style, and me being a "shooter" got a nasty surprise using Spain v Holland.....if I'd had almost any other faction (not Russia) then this may never have been mentioned.

As long as any changes to CB or the wiki make it better it can not be a bad thing......but I agree, things like this might put people off, but I think it's more that people are reluctant to try new stuff, they prefer the standard lobby game where it's so simple to log on, fight and log off.

If you see how hard it is to get people to even DOWNLOAD a simple new map, it's not surprising that many don't want to get involved with a new version of ntw2 which ther are not used to.

Ok, ok. But, in my opinion, same tests with Napoleonic will temper the actual bad advertising for CB.

I repeat: if I was a non CB player I will be yet less inclined to try it after reading those comments.

I understand what you are saying GP. This discussion is being held assuming that everyone watching and participating has been fully immersed in NTW2 since its release in 2006 - its not the correct assumption and I agree with your own conclusion that this can make things as they are seem a bit scary.

The reality however, which is probably not obvious to newcomers, is that CB and NTW2 are exactly the same game using the same engine and in fact (by and large, with only a few exceptions) the same statistics for the troops. Any inherent problems that NTW2 has are absolutely going to follow through and be a problem for CB as well.

The discussion here, despite being approached from several angles, is really about how the cost of units relates to their perceived on-field performance. This is one area where CB has tried to improve upon the original game and the discussions relating to this are going to be quite distinct from any issues or perceptions of problems with the game mechanics themselves.

Ultimately its usually bad form to release too many 'official' versions of anything as it promotes confusion in the community....at the same time though, if you can't be flexible when concerns arise then this can also have a negative impact on the playing community. Its a fine balance.

Best regards,
M.

I'd say there are so few user's of CB that it makes good sense to release a new version with these cost changes, as it improves it for the people who are using it......if you get afraid of improving it, because of the chance of confusing those who DO not use it, the ones who do use it lose out.

I agree in relation to CB - also, is it just me or has the whole active community shrunk down considerably in the last month for NTW2 as well?




True enough. At the same time though I am interested in everyone's views. Those who don't use it may not for some good reasons and I'd like to know what those are. Those that are using it are of course always going to get my full attention even if sometimes we don't end up in an agreed position.

Regards, M.

We never get to hear from those that don't use it, also we never get to hear why they don't use it either....

Lack of interest is the answer I'd say.

Why don't more people use CB
What we have in the lobby is a small but fairly regular group playing NTW and having for the most part an enjoyable experience,
Then we have an individual (thats you Moorpere ) coming along with what is clearly an improvement of the game, he is very enthusiastically supported by a highly respected figure in the lobby (thats you Gunner24 ) with a couple of just as enthusiastic but much less experienced NTW players (me and GP )
This is sadly i believe, not enough to get this larger group of players, to give the new game a try.
Now if the LORDZ had come along with the exact same thing, and said hey folks we have made great improvements to NTW you can DL now on the site, BOBS YOUR UNCLE we would have a hell of allot more people enjoying CB right now.