nwg

Hello All,

Seems we're less than 4 months away from two very highly anticipated musket era games - LG and ETW. I suspect we are therefore in the autumn of NTW2's actively played life and as an extension of that Corps Battles usefulness must be drawing near to its end.

That said, it seems likely that there is time and purpose for one last release of the CB idea. It will be V4 and if accepted by the community would form the basis of probably the last NTW2.wiki campaigns before a new tactical engine takes over.

Perhaps no more than a fine tune and tweak would be appropriate at this point, but lets think and live dangerously eh?

To kick off the discussion of what might be appropriate I want to table a quite outrageous idea.

For a number of CB releases now there has been a search for a decent balance between howitzers and cannon. We've swung between using no howitzer at all to using nothing but howitzer as stats were tweaked inside the game for different CB versions. This is some of what I've learned:

- Howitzer with their current firing stats in large numbers are perceived to be extremely dangerous and are therefore enticing to buy
- Cannon are difficult to use because of terrain effects, but their canister ability makes them an easy choice when howitzers are viewed as being understrength
- The Canister effect for 4, 6 and even 8/9lb guns is difficult to make good use of without embedding the artillery in a line unit because of its relatively short range and the interaction of game animation and unit speed. In other words, for short range canister you normally can't get off more then 1-2 rounds before being charged and the effect is normally minimal.
- 6 model guns is about the maximum that are realistically usable and manoeuvrable on the field
- Aside from lucky or particularly adroit use of canister, cannon struggle to gain enough kills to be perceived as a good investment as each roundshot 'hit' usually only kills 2-3 models and a lot of balls don't hit anything at all. Perhaps a re-think on the amount of ammunition available will help with this perception/reality. If there is enough ammunition to shoot throughout 70% of a typical game then the number of kills will rise slowly over time (if you can keep your crews alive).
- Everyone appears to agree that cannon batteries without their integral historical howitzers are odd - even moreso the idea of howitzer only batteries. Yet the game won't allow both within the same unit....or will it?

Heres the radical bit: How would we feel about losing canister as an ability for all artillery and changing the secondary fire of all cannon to shell? This would give us the two main ammunition types used by almost all Napoleonic artillery batteries of the period .... by sacrificing canister which, frankly, was rarely used by artillery except in desperate circumstances.

In NTW2/CB canister is really only truly useful in two circumstances: When you embed your artillery inside infantry units (which all agree is a big cheat) or when you use CB and have 12lb cannon (because of the relatively large canister range in CB for the 12's).

Take a deep breath around now because its a big thing. We've all become very used to canistering our opponents to death and when it can be made to work it can be a game winner - but then ask yourself how many historical accounts you have read where at the divisional or corps level mass batteries of guns using canister won the day? I'd suggest not very many...in fact I can't think of any.....

For CB this would mean the removal of the howitzer battery as a unit. I can't think of any useful purpose that would be served in retaining the visual aspect of a separate howitzer model gun if we are going to 'imagine' the howitzers back inside the cannon batteries.

One good aspect of this proposed change is that Brunswick, formerly without howitzers, would gain the ability by default.

More ideas to come, and any new version of CB is still months away, but lets collect ideas and generally discuss useful stuff with a view to a 'final' release.

Regards, M.

Sorry M, I've read the above several times and I have still lost the plot here.......

I'm really not sure what you are suggesting.....I think it's NO howitzers - which is ok with me as I don't use them any longer anyway.

But now what are you suggesting you do with cannons ?.

Again, sorry, but it's not clear, cannons with no cannister ?....is that it ?. If so, no problem from me with that as it's the same for everyone, but it is reducing player choice - which does not sound good.

For me I'd simply change the howitzer stats/number/cost to somewhere BETWEEN where they used to be, and where they are now....before they were too good, now not good enough, so all we need is somewhere between the two - easy ?????, or not ?.

Ahh, I blabber way too much, and in the end no one knows exactly what I'm blabbering about hehe.




Yep.




Its not that easy. I'm sure I've nutted out why it is that players choose -either- cannon or howitzer but not both. The reason is that only 2-3 unit slots will ever be allocated to an artillery battery (sometimes only 1!). I can do what I want at the back end with the stats but this end result is the reality.

If I make Howitzers more attractive then folks will buy those and not the cannon. I doubt its even possible for me to make them equally attractive

So, the idea above is that if the secondary fire of -all- cannon batteries becomes howitzer shell then you don't need to make that choice. You have shell when you want it and you have roundshot when you want it - no hard choices to be made when selecting units.

I'm trialling the idea now in behind-the-scenes CB v4 work and its bloody difficult to make this work, I didn't expect it to be, but there you go. Nevertheless, I'll find a way.

What do we think? Would the loss of canister ability throughout the game cause you to buy in no artillery at all??

Moo.

Just a remark:

Replaying the Napoleonics fights I never see someone using Howitzers and no one complains.

Why would be so important to push for a Howitzer's revival?

Its a fair enough comment GP.

I have a personal agenda here as I believe Howitzers do have a real battlefield use and historically should be represented. My problem has always been finding a way to integrate them into the game in a way that doesn't force players to compromise on other aspects of their army build up.

To give a very simple example. If we agree to do nothing, and howitzers essentially disappear from the game, how would you remove a battery firing at you over the peak of a hill? Howitzers can 'lob' shell over the hill and take it out...also, some defensive positions lend themselves to being shelled rather than pounded with roundshot (infantry in creeks, etc).

I do agree that their overall use seems limited and probably this is how it should be.

Regards, M.

Good and valuable remark.

But knowing we own only 20 spots, ignoring in advance if the opponent will use the terrain as you describe, I understand why the howitzers are almost never buy.
More than that they are so imprecise, random, we couldn't be assured they will do the job we hope.

Regards, gp.

Indeed! I agree with you. If we were to experiment with the combination of shell and roundshot from the same battery then I could probably get away with improving the accuracy of the shell a little bit as it won't cause an imbalance between the cannon and howitzer under this circumstance (as they are the same unit). At the moment if I improve the howitzers really much at all they completely supplant the cannon which is definitely not the required outcome.

M.

Ok, I got it now, I understand......kind of makes some sense if it could work as cannons and howitzers were present in the same batteries (6 to2 or thereabouts).

I'm sure we should have howitzers here in CB in one form or other, but wonder if your making this harder than it need be.......change the price !....it can be that simple, there is a price at which it's worth taking howitzers as they are, like Militia, there usless, but so cheap it's always worth having a few.

I'm not sure the dynamics will work the same.

Generally, I think, folks choose militia when they've run out of money but need more troop numbers. I'm not sure if players will do the same when they run out of money and want artillery. Howitzers are such a specialised weapon, you'll take them 9 times out of 10 (even if cheap) and wish you'd taken 4 or 6lb cannon instead. Yet, if they were part of the cannon battery I bet folks would use the shell option at certain times during a battle.

M.

Hi gents M touched on this point (giving cannon a shell firing capability instead of cannister) a few weeks ago, we all i think want to see howitzers make a appearance in our battles, this way just about every battle we fight you will have the option, without having to make a sacrifice in your overall deployment, this sounds great to me.
I have never been a big fan of cannister having at times a devastating effect, and as you guys say in history this did just not happen.
So yes I'm in favour of this overall, although in a perfect world cannister would still be an option.
M, is it possible to do as you suggest and have say a 6p battery available in your unit pool with the cannister option, maybe with a reduced kill effect

Ha, when you word it like this it does indeed sound a fine idea....the option of cannon balls or shells.....hmmmm, yes, sounds ok to me, IF it is possible - do we know if it is ?....not much point talking about it if the game engine will not allow it.

Its certainly possible because the Russian Licornes work this way. They have no canister, only roundshot and shell. Gunner you must have noticed me mass shelling you in all our games so far.....(or are they that ineffective??).

I'm having trouble integrating this into the standard (non licorne) batteries right now but I'll get over the issue somehow in the next little bit. I am confident of finding a way.

Cheers,
M.

The way the animation cycle works in the game also means that with realistic canister ranges on the 4-6-8-9lb cannon its almost impossible to use canister for more then 1-2 rounds (if you are lucky!). The only really useable canister is 12lb cannon and I'm really unsure of the historical precedents for heavy cannon being reeled out to canister the enemy infantry.

There are a number of citations that I'm aware of where cannon of all types used canister to great effect in moments of desperation, usually when being charged by cavalry, but these are localised events, important to the gun crew and the cavalry squadron of course but really not important to the battle overall at a divisional/corps level.




Yes, I agree.




Mmm. I'm really torn by this. It seems like the most reasonable thing is to remove canister from the heavy guns as they were least likely to use it and keep it on the light divisional pieces - however, these light pieces have such short canister range that its difficult or impossible to use it consistently.

This is an instance of where the game mechanics get in the way of true historical accuracy. In practise gun crews menaced by infantry or more probably cavalry would ramp up their load/fire cycle to 5 or even 6 rounds per minute letting forth a virtual maelstrom of really nasty canister shot. In game of course the crews plod along as normal seeming to feel no threat at all. Without embedding your artillery its extremely difficult, as you all would know, to get your 4 or 6lb guns to fire canister in a reliable and useful way at an enemy infantry line....and against a charging cavalry unit you normally get no effect whatever.

To wrap it all up then, I wonder if we'd really be losing much at all to sacrifice the almost unusable canister in relation to guns with a calibre smaller than 12lb?

Cheers,
Moopere

I understand what your saying M, it all makes sense,
Having said that, for what its worth i would still like to see the cannister option for the 6p in the game, yes its difficult to deploy effectively, but not impossible and if it gets used only occasionally then for me that fits in nicely with both the type of games we enjoy and history.
What ever you decide M, i will be happy

Ha, I'm not sure, I try to keep my head down and not be too put off by artillery shooting at me - unless it's cannister.